Curse

Sleeper Service · Nov 15, 2007, 09:04 AM // 09:04

funny i wrote a post on this very same issue yesterday and it didn't even last 5 min.

so i went and posted it on the other site, same result.

heres a link for what its worth.

the short version is pve and pvp adversely affect each other in the current system, why a split is needed and a possible solution.

telling pvp players to just "adapt to the meta" clearly doesn't and will not work.

telling pve players to just "play bear and who cares its easy" is just idiotic.

meh, this post will last all of 5 min before its magically gone anyways.

Surena · Nov 15, 2007, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Except that if it is done this way, each individual battle would take as long as a standard GvG, and then multiply that times every patrol of mobs in a zone. Suddenly PvE goes from being a casual game to an 8-hour-a-day career.

No, it would help making people understand why PvP needs balance when they suddenly see their their monks SP-spiked, their "Ellies" dazed while their warriors cyclone axe themselves to death. Suddenly they'll realize and beg for pushover PvE again, because after all it's a certain (whining) player pool that adores the predictability of PvE while failing to see the advantage which PvPers will never have.

DDL · Nov 15, 2007, 09:27 AM // 09:27

I don't think you quite get it.

It's not a PvE "demand for easy"..if everyone in PvE wanted LOL EASY they'd all be running around as bears.

Funnily enough, they're NOT. Some are, sure, but then some people in PvP are running whatever the unbeatable flavour of the month set up is: some people just want to WIN, and don't care how they do so.

This is true in both PvE and PvP.

Some people just want to play and enjoy themselves, while still using actual SKILL to get the job done. Clearly you do, right? That's why the broken PvP builds get nerfed, after all: so you can win with skill rather than a loophole system.

Amazingly, it's EXACTLY the same in PvE.

So please try to understand why having something randomly changed in PvE (that WASN'T broken in PvE) for NO PvE RELATED REASON is annoying.

Surena · Nov 15, 2007, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

So please try to understand why having something randomly changed in PvE (that WASN'T broken in PvE) for NO PvE RELATED REASON is annoying.

In PvE most things don't need (I'm not saying "take"!) skill because you're supposed to win and, to repeat myself again, you know what to face, you can prepare. That's why you will always win with a bit of effort. However the amount of effort needed is shrinking and shrinking constantly with the introduction of several PvE skills.

You'll still be able to do everything as you did it before. PvP changes don't affect PvE much and mostly to the good. Whine exists until Anet delivers the instagib button, because soon after that nobody will play this game anymore.

What exactly doesn't work in PvE anymore now after the update?

Sleeper Service · Nov 15, 2007, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surena

In PvE most things don't need (I'm not saying "take"!) skill because you're supposed to win and, to repeat myself again, you know what to face, you can prepare. That's why you will always win with a bit of effort. However the amount of effort needed is shrinking and shrinking constantly with the introduction of several PvE skills.

You'll still be able to do everything as you did it before. PvP changes don't affect PvE much and mostly to the good. Whine exists until Anet delivers the instagib button, because soon after that nobody will play this game anymore.

What exactly doesn't work in PvE anymore now after the update?

typical.

whats hard to get? we bought the game to play GW not BEAR, Assuran... whatever.
skills that compress whole skillbars, that deal more damage than the best elite skill and in the worst case replace whole skillbars is NOT gw. Its the end result of the current system.

arcanemacabre · Nov 15, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

So please try to understand why having something randomly changed in PvE (that WASN'T broken in PvE) for NO PvE RELATED REASON is annoying.

**WARNING - Unusually long post**

Oh, it may be annoying to you, as well as some of the more vocal people, but it's fine by me. Why? Well, honestly I would even love skills randomly chosen, perhaps by a die roll, or pulled out of some enormous hat, or whatever, then nerfed/buffed. There doesn't have to be a reason. I like change for the sake of change.

Look, it keeps things interesting. It makes people re-think their builds and strategies. It breathes more life into a game that is all about skills, not equipment. The only changes I don't like are game mechanics changes that end up worse than they were before. This, for me, includes things such as GUI 'upgrades,' the original 5-second SR nerf, and now the pet corpse thingy. Other than that, I say bring on all the funky skill changes.

To give an example at how this affects me, and how I ultimately handle it, I give you - the Verata's Sacrifice and MM limit nerfs. When this happened, I was still learning my first character, my necro. I loved the MM skills, and I only had Verata's Sac for about two weeks, and loving the immense power and ridiculous army it allowed me.

When it was initially nerfed, I was so mad. I wasn't posting on GURU, though, kept it mostly to myself. I just outright gave up on MMing entirely. The next day, I picked it right back up and tried out different skills, especially the now improved BotM. You know what: it was still fun. Different, requiring different skills, and required a bit more work to keep 10 minions, but still fun.

That is the whole point - fun. Who cares if your favorite build gets whacked from a couple of different directions. If you can't get back up, dust yourself off, and try something different, then you're not doing it for the fun anymore. This has nothing to do with how good of a player you are, "lernz to adapt" and all that - NO. Don't listen to that. No, what you need to learn is how to have fun in a video game.

Yeah, everytime I see a new skill balance, I get mad at my favorite skills getting hit, and I get overjoyed at skills I've never tried, or I always thought sucked getting buffed. I go through that whole range of emotion just reading through the changes. When I'm done reading, I ponder on what it could mean for my builds, and what I can now change or try out. Remember, it's PvE, the monsters aren't going to laugh at you and call you noob if you fail miserably with your new build (though the Charr in the Northlands might flash rank...).

DreamRunner · Nov 15, 2007, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azza

LOL Ohhh yeeaaahhhh and then some, and they are still going at it, i found GWEN easy personally, but onto subject of title of thread at hand, this thread isn`t about an aspect of the game being to hard its a whinge at Area Nerfing Skills to the detrement of PVE`ers and wanting the Skills of PVP vs PVE to be seperated so that they dont affect PVE if its meant to counter an Exploit in PVP

Yes, but when you bring any suggestion that effects PvE and PvP namely skill changes, PvE vs PvP threads start to occur. Anyway, I was just responding to your post that said PvPer whines to much which I found odd because I remembered threads on mini pets and GWEN. Re-skin Armor, title farming, low drop rate, jeez it went on and on.

DDL · Nov 15, 2007, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Read what I actually said, not what you think I'm trying to say:

"please try to understand why having something randomly changed in PvE (that WASN'T broken in PvE) for NO PvE RELATED REASON is annoying."

Right? Not 'it has made teh gaem too hards!!!oneone'.

It's just extremely annoying to have constant tweaks and alterations to skills (and actual base game mechanics) that are already working quite perfectly in PvE JUST BECAUSE OF PvP.

Which is the key issue here: as has been noted (even by yourself!), PvE is fine as it is: so why not restrict the changes...to PvP, where they're actually fixing a problem?

ALL these changes do in a PvE environment is..irritate the PvE crowd. They don't fix anything, they just..annoy people. For no reason. So surprisingly: people are annoyed.

And this: this is just stupid:

Quote:

No, it would help making people understand why PvP needs balance when they suddenly see their their monks SP-spiked, their "Ellies" dazed while their warriors cyclone axe themselves to death. Suddenly they'll realize and beg for pushover PvE again, because after all it's a certain (whining) player pool that adores the predictability of PvE while failing to see the advantage which PvPers will never have.

You've completely failed to use any empathy whatsoever there. None.

If PvP is "OH SO HARD: Those PvE people have SUCH an advantage"...then go play PvE. It's possible, you know? If you're playing PvP for the challenge, then don't complain about the challenge, and don't mock other people for "not playing PvP for the challenge".

There is no effective way of making PvE more 'PvP like': would you like it if GvG matches could only be won if you could beat 20 other teams consecutively, with death penalties carrying across and res sigs only resetting when the guild lord is killed? Because making PvE like PvP would be basically that. It just wouldn't work.

Surena · Nov 15, 2007, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

It's just extremely annoying to have constant tweaks and alterations to skills (and actual base game mechanics) that are already working quite perfectly in PvE JUST BECAUSE OF PvP.

These meagre changes didn't kill any viable build (except maybe echoed shadowfail), did not take away firepower or whatever you needed to win in PvE, yet you still find it annoying and irritating because changes=generally bad? I can't count that as an argument.

Quote:

Which is the key issue here: as has been noted (even by yourself!), PvE is fine as it is: so why not restrict the changes...to PvP, where they're actually fixing a problem?

No, I said PvE will always be fine after such changes. ALWAYS. That's a difference.

Quote:

ALL these changes do in a PvE environment is..irritate the PvE crowd. They don't fix anything, they just..annoy people. For no reason. So surprisingly: people are annoyed.

And this: this is just stupid:

Yes, stupidity on their side. There are plenty ways of annoying yourself, if you're that sensitive, then I really hope it stays ingame. My Warrior survived the shield nerf, my Ele the AoE "nerf", my Necro all kinds of SR-related changes and my ranger doesn't feel bad about interrupt delays. Plenty things HAD to be fixed. Remember protective bond? Massive armies of minions that tanked whole Tyria?

Again. Why fear changes that only influence bad play?

Are you autistic?

Quote:

You've completely failed to use any empathy whatsoever there. None.

Empathy for you was yesterday.

Quote:

If PvP is "OH SO HARD: Those PvE people have SUCH an advantage"...then go play PvE. It's possible, you know? If you're playing PvP for the challenge, then don't complain about the challenge, and don't mock other people for "not playing PvP for the challenge".

Facing overpowered builds, templates, skills, mechanics (teleporting) is no challenge, it is annoying because it doesn't reward player skill. Of course you'll never understand that, you didn't even understand the part about the fundamental advantage, yet your throwing it at me.

Sleeper Service · Nov 15, 2007, 10:48 AM // 10:48

"Facing overpowered builds, templates, skills, mechanics (teleporting) is no challenge, it is annoying because it doesn't reward player skill."

i honestly dont know if you are talking about pve or pvp.

do you not understand that the nerfs and constant changes to skills affect MOBS in a minimal fashion but yet affect pve PLAYERS to the same degree as pvp?

mobs have higher levels their raw dmg output is intrinsically higher, they are more numerous and they 321SPIKE every single time.

theres no need to flame either dont you get it? none of us is responsible for the current situation linking skills to pvp and pve two VERY DIFFERENT styles of gaming and changing the way skills work for x,y,z reasons in one format will ALWAYS negatively affect the other.

DDL · Nov 15, 2007, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Surena: You STILL don't get it.

Ok, let's try one more time.

Changing things for PvE to correct a problem in PvP is both irritating and (and here's the key) UNNECESSARY.

So you survived lots of changes: great! Good for you!

The question is, were they changes to stop exploits in PvE? A lot of them seem to have been. This, I might point out, is FINE. Splinterbarrage nerf? FINE.

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever, none, none at all, with changes to PvE to fix PvE problems.

These very rarely, however, have prominent effects in PvP. How many monsters do you encounter in team arenas? None! So monster AI changes are going to have zero effect there.

Do you see? And if PvE-initiated changes DO have significant effects on PvP, the PvP people would most probably be annoyed! It works both ways.

The whole point of this thread is that skill/mechanics differences between PvP and PvE can be implemented, and in fact, ARE implemented to a certain degree. So why not just go the whole hog? Balance PvP to keep the players happy, and similarly nerf exploits in PvE when they're clearly broken (splinterbarrage). Just don't use the SAME changes for both groups.

Are we on the same page now?

It's not that changes are necessarily making anything IMPOSSIBLE in PvE, because that would be stupid, but they're frequently changing things that didn't need changing. It's unnecessary.

And in the case of non-fleshy pets, just...ugly and stupid.

You just can't compare PvP and PvE gameplay wise.

How many times in PvP do you have to use the same build against a massive range of level 28 opponents without ever getting a chance to change build or recover?

None!

Likewise, how many times in PvE do you have to face a completely unpredictable team of actual people of equal level?

None!

And yet the same skills are somehow supposed to address both aspects equally. It's a fundamentally flawed concept.

Longasc · Nov 15, 2007, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

theres no need to flame either dont you get it? none of us is responsible for the current situation linking skills to pvp and pve two VERY DIFFERENT styles of gaming and changing the way skills work for x,y,z reasons in one format will ALWAYS negatively affect the other.

Yes, this is the reason for the everlasting forum conflict between pve and pvp.

PvP would be better off without PvE, and vice versa.

Iem · Nov 15, 2007, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

rot in hell please.

PvE already has all of the attention in GW1 and its been that way for a while. The only thing PvP has is occasional skill balance and every time it happens a moan fest starts. Get over it.

I admit that I don't PvP so wouldn't miss it if it was not part of the game. I also haven't been too bothered by the skill balances so I'm not moaning about anything.

My point was that as long as there are both aspects in the game you will never make everyone happy. I don't think there is a practical way to separate the 2 while keeping them based on the same skills and game concepts and it would be a waste of resources for Anet to try.

I would be really interested to see the stats as far as how many players do PvP vesus PvE. You see posts here and there stating that there are many more PvEers than PvPers but I suspect those are just guesses or wishful thinking. But if one population makes up the vast majority of the players it might make sense to focus on that aspect.

Just out of curiousity, what do you think Anet should be doing for PvP that isn't being done? There are 2 groups of people trying to kill each other, other than some landscape what else do you need? All the skill balances being done are already based almost exclusively on PvP issues not PvE.

Avarre · Nov 15, 2007, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iem

Just out of curiousity, what do you think Anet should be doing for PvP that isn't being done? There are 2 groups of people trying to kill each other, other than some landscape what else do you need? All the skill balances being done are already based almost exclusively on PvP issues not PvE.

Take a short visit to the PvP sections of the forum and have a look. It's not the quantity of things done to PvP, but the quality.

Sleeper Service · Nov 15, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

balance from izzys talk page

One of the issues that Anet and players has is (imo) that no one realy has a good definition of "balance".

in pvp is balance "everything is equal" or "nothing is equal"?

in pve balance is more straight forward. "everything is just right", granted "just right" is not the same for everyone so thats why games in general come with several modes of difficulty. in GW we have HM and the ability to make thing easier or harder by using particular builds. its flexible, customizable and the one thing that keeps me playing.

pvp balance as approached by Anet now, requires constant intervention and maintenance. its never EVER going to end.

DreamRunner · Nov 15, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

balance from izzys talk page

One of the issues that Anet and players has is (imo) that no one realy has a good definition of "balance".

in pvp is balance "everything is equal" or "nothing is equal"?

in pve balance is more straight forward. "everything is just right", granted "just right" is not the same for everyone so thats why games in general come with several modes of difficulty. in GW we have HM and the ability to make thing easier or harder by using particular builds. its flexible, customizable and the one thing that keeps me playing.

pvp balance as approached by Anet now, requires constant intervention and maintenance. its never EVER going to end.

PvE balance is simple only because its the fact that monster X is meant to die.

Redfeather1975 · Nov 15, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Anyone here played Everquest 2?
That's how it's done there. I know the community there wouldn't wanted it any other way.
Alot of people at first thought that having PvP and PvE variants for skills would be bad, but after they saw why the devs implemented it, they realized the potential it had created.

Sleeper Service · Nov 15, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

PvE balance is simple only because its the fact that monster X is meant to die.

making a pve experience enjoyable is not simple though.

plenty of games have been ruined because it was either too hard or too easy, the best games have it dosed correctly and getting that aspect right is no easy feat.

Antheus · Nov 15, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

in pvp is balance "everything is equal" or "nothing is equal"?

In PvP, balance is the absence of imbalance.

Keithark · Nov 15, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

There already is a split.... PvP players have split to find other games and PvE players are splitting to go to ebay and get some gold since farming is dead